Thought i’d post in here as im thinking maybe the issue im facing is with the MC6 pro rather than the ML5s but honestly not sure.
I have all my pedals going into 2x ML5s, all pedals are engaged as default, the ML5s control what my audio passes through. I build presets of sounds, then in different banks build song specific presets that recalls these other presets.
Every preset I program has the “bypass all loops” message first so that everything is default to off then on the same preset under the same press action I engage the loops on the ML5s I want.
Im noticing an audible drop or latency between pressing the switch and the engaging of the pedals, I dont know if it’s the ML5s “bypass all loops” message triggering that causes this or what it could be, any help appreciated as it’s really causing problems in a live environment.
I have checked to see if there is any switch muting on the ML5s- doesnt seem to (i guess the LEDs would be blue after booting and holding D? the online manual isnt too clear on this) and the MC6 Pro’s sensitivity is set to 4, at 5 the bank/page down/up doesnt work with simultaneous pressing.
Here’s a video of the issue, sometimes it is very noticable, others not, its very temperamental: Imgur: The magic of the Internet
Thanks!
Try turning off Muted Switching on the ML5s:
- Press D on the ML5 powered off. Keep holding D and power it on.
- Release D when the “Learn” switch lights up.
- You are now in the programming mode for muted switching. Loops that are lit have muted switching ON. Press loop buttons until they are all unlit. They are now off.
- Press Learn again to save your new settings.
No muted switching is on.
Then it’s most likely the bypass all message you’re starting with. Are you recalling ML5 presets or engaging/bypassing loops manually? If you’re recalling ML5 presets, then get rid of the bypass all messages. If you’re using the bypass all so that you can then manually engage the loops you want, that’s likely the cause of the dropout. With both ML5s momentarily basically becoming wires, all the volume from your gain staging and effects is going to momentarily disappear until everything comes back on.
Ideally, you should simply recall ML5 presets. Each preset engages/bypasses all the loops at once, rather than sequentially through a series of separate MIDI messages.
If you want to keep it orderly, consider programming 32 discrete presets on the ML5, each representing a possible toggle state, like so:
Now, you’ll always know exactly what a PC preset does (the engage-bypass state of the five loops corresponds to the preset number in binary, so if you know binary, you don’t even need the chart!).
(Note: the more recent ML5R has a CC to do this, which is where I got the idea)
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Im basically just using midi messages from the MC6 pro to the ML5, so every one of the MC6’s presets begins with the ML5’s 0 CC with a value of 0 so the MC6 sends the message to the ML5 to bypass all loops before sending the messages to engage the correct ones.
I get you, this is a complex solution but I get your suggestion, basically build presets on the ML5 that has every instance of combination of each of the 5 loops, then use these to make sure the correct stuff is looped in. It’s just a huge headache to remember which is which especially across 2 ML5s! but I think this is the best solution.
It might also work for you to keep doing it the way you have been, just without sending the CC#0 for full bypass. Instead you would send 5 discrete CCs for each ML5. It’d be more messages, but the MC6 doesn’t care as long as you’ve got space in the preset. I think if you send all the messages for the gain pedals first (so start from the ML5 with your drives, engage first then disengage) then do the same with the second ML5, you’ll minimize the volume drop effect you’re hearing.
Ive just programmed both ML5s as above with that chart in a separate bank, so then I rebuilt my other presets by engaging the correct ML5 preset from the bank and going from there, it’s better but Im not so sure the latency is down the ML5.
Below is a video of the preset- first message sets the correct ML5 preset then the second message engages channel B on the Strymon Sunset, there’s still a noticable lag between pressing the button and the Strymon turning on, is this just a limitation of Midi? as in it cant work faster? Kinda at odds with it all now!
Vid: Imgur: The magic of the Internet
There are a few limiting factors on how responsive MIDI can be in this case. It’s not necessarily just the speed of MIDI itself:
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Your controller: in controller settings, try setting the Sensitivity to 4 if it’s at 3 or lower. Note that any long press or double tap events make the controller wait longer, so that it can distinguish between those and a standard press. (Sensitivity = 5 is the same as “looper mode,” meaning it doesn’t respond to long and double presses to minimize the time it takes to recognize a “press” event). Make sure “send delay” is 0 and experiment with decreasing the “long press” recognition time if your presets use it.
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The ML5: It interprets the MIDI signal, then turns that into actual physical switching events. I haven’t really noticed a lag, but you might be more sensitive than me. Do you notice any lag when switching loops on and off on the device face? Even in the example you sent, I can hear the lag but it probably wouldn’t annoy me. It’s about as long as many digital effects take to swap presets. Which takes me to point 3…
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The Sunset is digital … do you notice any lag when you swap between presets on the pedal itself? That pedal also has to take in a MIDI signal and then change presets or parameters accordingly.
I do hear the lag just slightly (though I don’t think I’d be bothered by it), but I don’t hear an audio dropout. Also, is your sunset in an ML5 loop? Since the pedal can be engaged/bypass directly via MIDI, it doesn’t necessarily need to be in an ML5 loop unless the pedals before and after it have to be. That would probably be the lowest possible latency for that pedal.
Thanks for the reply, do appreciate it, the sensitivity is already set to 4 and I dont have space for aux switches (banking/pages etc) to go up to 5- midi delay also set to 0.
Im not sure you can change presets on the Sunset without either midi or a separate “faves” pedal unfortunately, there is a noticeable dropout in the audio when I press the same preset that engages the B circuit on the Sunset, no toggle mode, the only message being sent to the Sunset is to engage the B side, every time the preset is pressed the Strymon dips in sound, all very odd
Looks like it’s a Strymon DSP issue, as I suspected:
So the strymon is basically causing a dropout thats unavoidable? It is first in my signal chain and basically always on..
The Strymon appears to drop out briefly when it switches between functions (different presets, different channels)
Ah what a rubbish limitation, i guess with it being first in the chain it will cause a dropout across the board too.
If your Strymon is in an ML5 loop, you could potentially time it so that it doesn’t come on until the change happens. The order of commands on your Morningstar Controller would be something like:
- turn off the loop with the Sunset in it
- change Sunset’s preset or channel
- delay X number of milliseconds (you’d have to experiment)
- turn on the loop with the sunset in it
You’d hear some sort of tone/volume change no matter what, but depending on whether the Sunset is boosted or roughly at unity, it could be more or less noticeable.
