Running two ML10X’s

Morningstar Gear ML10X
1

Two Morningstar ML10X’s TROUBLE

I am so frustrated with this installation that I’m ready to put it all in a box and forget about it. I bought two ML10X’s, an MC8 and a MIDI Box along with all the appropriate connectors. I am using a new MacBook Pro with the latest operating software.

I have been able to get one ML10X working but, because my board is all Chase Bliss except for my Strymon Compressor and tuner, and I have three stereo pedals, I want both ML10X’s to work. I should mention that I have my Peterson tuner piggy backed to my Strymon Compadre and it is set to always on. I need to piggyback one more pedal to give me space for another stereo pedal. I haven’t even tried working with MC8 yet.

· MY GEAR

· PETERSON TUNER

· STRYMON COMPADRE COMPRESSOR

· CHASE BLISS BROTHERS

· CHASE BLISS MKII AUTOMOTONE

· CHASE BLISS CONDOR

· CHASE BLISS LOSSY (stereo)

· CHASE BLISS CXM 1978 (stereo)

· CHASE BLISS TONAL RECALL

· CHASE BLISS DARK WORLD

· CHASE BLISS MOOD (stereo)

· CHASE BLISS GRAVITAS

MY CONNECTIONS:

From ML10X (1) I have the send from A send connected to the input on (2). I have the A return connected to the Output on (2). The input on (2) goes to my guitar, the output goes to my amp.

Could someone please tell me every setting and connection that I need to make before I jump off a bridge leaving the gear behind and no, you can’t have the address of the bridge.

Thank you all very much for your help

2

After hours of tinkering with this thing and searching the web, I finally pieced it together. The answer was fairly simple but, the problem is: no where in Morningstar manuals, video’s, forums and even in the web in general, does it say to connect a TRS cable from one in two the second out. Further, no where does it say: that you need to open two editor windows to control each ML10X. It is likely that I missed it, after all, once a person has read things 10 times to value of the reading tends to be greatly diminished.

I would love from someone from your company to tell me specifically where these items are printed. If there not printed, this might be a good time from someone from Morningstar to take the initiative and fix this problem. I spent over $1,000 on Morningstar gear and am really disappointed by the level of support. While I’m certain not having phone support is a cost saving measure, it is not one that tends to breed repeat customers and valuable reviews. Do you have any idea how annoying it is to send emails and wait day’s

Another problem I have is that several of the small covers that are above the nut on the ML10X plug in’s have fallen off. This is a design deficiency and should be corrected immediately. I need to know if it matters that those tiny rings are needed, if so. Please forward me several so I can replace them when they fall off. Another problem is two of the nuts that hold the jacks in place have come off. I don’t know how that could happen but, it’s certainly a design or manufacturing defect that needs to be addressed.

3

I feel your pain. I’ve been a long time MIDI FC & Loop Switch nerd. I had two Sound Sculpture Switchblade 8F’s before the MC10X came out. I now use the Morningstar MC5 for my early chain, mono effects and the MC10X for my mono pre’s (I have the CBA Pre MKII in there as well) and stereo effects.

You might be the first person to try to integrate two MC10X’s together…they were is short supply for awhile (got mine the minute they announced it). From my experience with integrating the two Switchblade 8F’s, you have to do a ton of notes on routing options.
From your description, I’m curious as to what pedals you might want to: A) switch the order of. B) run in parallel.
I’m no pro on the Morningstar system, but it’s the best I’ve found. Let me share my set up (there are similarities) and maybe we can help each other out.

My path: (* denotes MIDI control)
Guitar-Peterson Tuner>
Jackson Audio Bloom Compressor*>
MC5 mono loop controller*:
L1-cheap “Slow Gear” knock-off
L2-EHX Mel9
L3-EHX Super Ego
L4-TC Nova Drive*
L5-DOD Rubberneck* (limited MIDI control via MS Omniport-Relay Interface)
MC10X matrix router*
LA1-Boss GT1000core*: Left in-to-Send 1 (mono/could be stereo with LA2)
LA2-Boss GT1000core*: Right in-to-Send 2 (mono/could be stereo with LA1)
LB1-Two Notes La Clean Preamp* (limited MIDI control)
LB2-CBA Pre MKII*
LC1/2 (stereo effects start here)-Boss GT1000core Returns 1&2-to-Stereo Out
LD1/2-Meris LVX*
LE1/2-Goodwood Audio Audition: mono/stereo send/return box for trying new stuff or sending a mono feed to create a Wet/Dry/Wet

I output from the MC10X to a stereo power amp or the stereo FX return of a stereo amp (JC120 or similar).

On my MC8, I created Banks for each MIDI unit (towards the end of the list, starting at Bank 20) and arranged them in order of where they are in the default chain (the list above). I assigned MIDI channels in a similar sequence…just to help my brain.
I set up each pedal’s dedicated Bank on the MC8, one at a time, giving the pedal all the basic functionality (ei: if your pedal has 128 presets, assign a “Scroll Counter” and create “preset up/down” switches, “tempo BPM” switch, turn on/off expression pedal parameter assigns). THEN, I did the same for my MC5, MC10X and Relay Controller (I can go into detail on my initial MC10X presets, if you want).

I created some super basic presets on the MC5 and MC10X and assigned Preset up/Down switches to the MC8, on those dedicated Banks. Then I created LOOP ON/OFF presets in the same MC8 Bank for each loop. A good starting place to try different combos.

Ostensively, my goal was to compartmentalize the functions of the system and slowly attack them on dedicated Banks, until I could sort out device level presets, and Morningstar level routings for those presets.

I assume you’ve hooked up some if not all of your pedals in some form of series signal routing? Any thoughts on which pedal will only be in-series or parallel, pre stereo pedals, or are you wanting to (for example) route something like the Condor to one side of a stereo loop of the Lossy?

LMK…I’m bored and am also going down the Morningstar programming rabbit hole.

4

Hello and thanks for the response.

What I finally learned is that you have to hook the two ML10X’s together with a TRS cable going from ML1 out to ML2 input. Then you have to open two editor windows choosing one ML10 drop down and logging that one in and then you go back to the Editor a chose ML2 and change the ML’s in the drop down. Now you log that one in. By doing so, you have two ML10x’s hooked up and functioning.

I ordered a bunch of new connectors and some Mogami 2319 cable. I spent almost $400 on cable and Squareplug SPS5 connectors and Squareplug SP550 square plugs and a bunch of TRS connectors.

As soon as they get here, I’ll solder up the cable as follows ML10x One

Peterson Tuner to Strymon Compadre and the ML1
Chase Bliss Brothers to 2 on ML1
Chase Bliss MKII to 3 on ML1
Chase Bliss Condor to 4 on ML1
Chase Bliss Dark World to 5 on ML1

ML10X Two
Chase Bliss Warped Vinyl to 1 on ML2
Chase Bliss Gravitas to 2 on ML2
Chase Bliss Tonal Recall 3 to ML2
Chase Bliss Mood to 4 to ML2
Chase Bliss CXM to 5 to ML2

Somewhere in here I need to piggy back two pedal to give me the stereo for both the Mood and the CXM or I’ll just put the CXM inline with the Mood.

As for MIDI routing, I haven’t got that far but, so far, I am coming out of my MC8 to ML10X one to Ml10X two to my Morningstar MIDI Box to the MKII and then the CXM. The rest will come out from my MIDI Box in a not yet established routing. I’m open for suggestions if you have some.

Thanks

5

I wonder if you might not have gained how to utilize all of the capabilities of the ML10X…or maybe I just am misunderstanding you. Forgive me if I have misunderstood you and am verbose/long winded on this, but here is my suggestion:

Tuner-to: Compadre-to: ML10X#1 (so that the "always on/pre-router pedals don’t eat up loops).

ML10X#1: [so far you have only mono pedals on MC10X #1]

Loop A-Left(1) [this is where I think we lost each other. By using a TRS-to-Dual TS Y-cable, this first loop becomes TWO separate mono loops]
CBA Brothers

Loop A-Right(2) CBA Preamp MKII

Loop B-Left(1) CBA Condor

Loop B-Right(2) CBA Dark World

You should still have three stereo loops (6 mono loops) on you MC10X #1 available to you.

**The MC10X can do 10 mono loops or 5 stereo loops, provided that you use the right cables. You would need 5x TRS 1/4" MALE split (or Y-cables) to two TS 1/4" MALE cables. (I have some of these for testing:
https://www.amazon.com/Rockgear-Splitter-Cable-11-81-Black/dp/B07LC235XB/ref=asc_df_B07LC235XB/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=693366139088&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2387358043964504370&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9004747&hvtargid=pla-900068720061&psc=1&mcid=b2d9ed2d74833845a1f87bcc7a84c5e9&gad_source=1)

ML10X #1 OUT via TRS (stereo) to ML10X #2 IN via TRS (stereo)

Loop A-Left(1) CBA Warped Vinyl-mono [I still have my V1 from way back…dip switches under the pedal…crazy)

Loop A-Right(2) CBA Gravitas-mono

Loop B-Left(1) CBA Tonal Recall-mono

Loop B-Right(2) empty

[here is where you go stereo and start eating up loops]
Loop C-STEREO(1&2) CBA Mood

Loop D-STEREO(1&2) CBA CMX

Loop E-undefined

ML10X #2 TRS (stereo out) to TBD.

Have I missed something or maybe you were not fully aware of the nature of the ML10X and its “TRS-to-Dual MONO/TRS-to-stereo” functionality. I’m 49-years old, and have been dealing with this stuff since the mid-90’s and Morningstar stuff still has me questing myself. That said, you could sell ML10X #1 and buy a ML5 (and re-coup some cash) unless you were REALLY wanting to place Dark World before gain/filter. Brothers and Condor are sorta integrated into MKII, BUT, the ML10X would allow you dual paths for “faux dual amps”…thats what I do with Le Clean and MKII. Or I run MKII as a fuzz into Le Clean. I guess the point is, "What effects on ML10X #1 need to be “modular” (as in Matrix routable, vs static location)?

I hope I am not coming across like I am “talking down”. I literally figured out the same stuff recently. I am trying to share my woes and save some one from the same headaches.

If you are unclear about my descriptions, and want me to elaborate, let me know.

6

I don’t know why I didn’t think of using the Y connectors. I have several, that will make the stereo a snap. I called Performance Audio today, they are sending the, 2nd day air for an additional $25. I should have everything soldered up by the weekend.

7

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IMG_02364032×3024 2.62 MB

Here are pictures of my progress thus far. Now I am making thenMIDI TRS cables. If you look closely between the Strymon and the first ML10X the MIDI Box in in between them. They are 8 outputs so, please correct me if I’m wrong, I don’t need to go to the MIDI box if I have 5 pin MIDI cables going to the devices, just those which doesn’t have a 5 Pin MIDI inputs.

I recognized what you said about using the splitters for the stereo channels. I think that means if I put one into the send and another into the return, I have the 4 jacks I need for stereo. Right now, I have a total of 10 pedals. You were saying that I probably don’t need the Brothers since I have the MKII. If that’s the case, I should probably sell the Brothers and get a Lossy to take its place. What’s your opinion on that.

Brother, don’t worry about talking down to me, I am so “down” in this category I need to look up to see down. I can’t wait to dive into the actual programming. Chase Bliss pedals have a number of built in presets that are set using dip switches. My plan is to make sure each of the factory presets are loaded and then start by taking songs I know the effects for and start mixing them up. Funny, I’ve come to the conclusion that you really only need about 10 to15 combinations and that should get you darn near every sound except for maybe some Edge stuff or Kenny Wayne Sheppard.

I’m looking forward to hearing your analysis of my progress.

8

Um, there are a few questions to be answered before I get behind the idea of you selling anything…nor should you I be a barometer for you making any big decisions. I’m just trying to understand and inform.

Now that I’ve got that out of the way, what routing schemes did you have in mind?

For me (if you reference my signal chain), I have two options for Amp front ends: The Le Clean (Fender style) and the CBA MK II. The CBA MK II can be a Benson Amp, or a CBA Condor or a fuzz pedal, or a WAH pedal, or a combination of all…you choose via a MIDI preset and routing scheme defined by the MC10X.

I do not see the Strymon Comp or the first MC10X in the pic, that you referred to. And I am unclear as to what you are referring to, when you say “MIDI Box”…I assume that you might be referring to a “DIN MIDI-to-TRS MIDI” box, like the ones CBA and Empress make. Basically a converter/distro box for MIDI.

Quick Rant About MIDI Controllers/Distros
Despite the numerous dumb vids about “how to patch MIDI for guitar effects”, it is generally considered a bad practice to chain MIDI devices…it’s on par with using power daisy chains. A MIDI “Thru” introduces more latency into the communication scheme. A MIDI distribution box (1 or 2 INS and multiple OUTS) is ideal, especially with a rig this complex.

I use a box designed for synth nerds…it is tiny and has a load of functionality. RetroKits RK 006. All connections are on 1/8", but they also sell a low profile DIN MIDI connector (the orange bobbin in pic #2) that is DIN-to-1/8".

tempImagePO7eix
tempImagePO7eix1920×2560 554 KB

This is what most folks use…DIN MIDI-to-1/4" TRS MIDI x4.

Here is my preferred solution:

tempImagen9yCa5
tempImagen9yCa51920×2560 624 KB

Two ins, 10 outs on 1/8", and whatever you want I/O on USB.

End Rant

Lets recap:
Tuner-to: Compadre-to: ML10X#1

ML10X#1:

Loop A-Left(1) CBA Brothers-mono

Loop A-Right(2) CBA Preamp MKII-mono

Loop B-Left(1) CBA Condor-mono

Loop B-Right(2) CBA Dark World-mono

Loops C,D,E (1&2) not assigned

ML10X #1 OUT via TRS (stereo) to ML10X #2 IN via TRS (stereo)

Loop A-Left(1) CBA Warped Vinyl-mono

Loop A-Right(2) CBA Gravitas-mono

Loop B-Left(1) CBA Tonal Recall-mono

Loop B-Right(2) empty

Loop C-STEREO(1&2) CBA Mood

Loop D-STEREO(1&2) CBA CMX (is this stereo? I forget…I feel like Joel K was weird about “stereo” back then)

Loop E-STEREO(1&2) not assigned

ML10X #2 TRS (stereo out) to TBD.

From my take…you could stand to sell one of your MC10X’s…or add some more pedals. Are you using two amps or sending to a “stereo effects return” on an amp that does two speakers w/ two discrete power amps (JC-120 or most cheapy Line 6 amps)? Are you going mono into a proper amp with gain?

I will ask you again, what are some of your routing concepts? For example: Left side: MKII fuzz-into-Lossy lo-fi, Right side: Dark World-into-Warped Vinyl-Tonal Recall. L&R channels panned via MC controller’s internal LFO, into CBA Mood (stereo)…could be cool.

9

[quote=“Malapp1, post:7, topic:8273, full:true”]

IMG_0236
IMG_02364032×3024 2.62 MB

Here are pictures of my progress thus far. Now I am making thenMIDI TRS cables. If you look closely between the Strymon and the first ML10X the MIDI Box in in between them. They are 8 outputs so, please correct me if I’m wrong, I don’t need to go to the MIDI box if I have 5 pin MIDI cables going to the devices, just those which doesn’t have a 5 Pin MIDI inputs.

I recognized what you said about using the splitters for the stereo channels. I think that means if I put one into the send and another into the return, I have the 4 jacks I need for stereo. Right now, I have a total of 10 pedals. You were saying that I probably don’t need the Brothers since I have the MKII. If that’s the case, I should probably sell the Brothers and get a Lossy to take its place. What’s your opinion on that.

Brother, don’t worry about talking down to me, I am so “down” in this category I need to look up to see down. I can’t wait to dive into the actual programming. Chase Bliss pedals have a number of built in presets that are set using dip switches. My plan is to make sure each of the factory presets are loaded and then start by taking songs I know the effects for and start mixing them up. Funny, I’ve come to the conclusion that you really only need about 10 to15 combinations and that should get you darn near every sound except for maybe some Edge stuff or Kenny Wayne Sheppard.

I’m looking forward to hearing your analysis of my progress.
They only let me put one picture in.

Okay, you have finally made it make sense. I will wire it exactly as you suggest. I’m just going to keep the two ML10X’s. I have probably had them to long to return them. The MIDI Box is just what you described. It’s an 8 port TRS mini plugs going to a 1/4” female that continues to the MIDI Channel on the pedal.

Was it you who suggested that I think about getting rid of the Brothers since I have the MLII. I don’t remember, somebody suggested that to me. I love the MKII, that thing has the greatest OD I’ve ever heard. I really don’t know what pedal I would replace the Brothers with. These Chase Bliss pedals are somewhat strange. You get some crazy ambient tones but some beautiful classic rock tones. I’ve found that incorporating some ambient tone into a classic rock setup can have a tremendous effect and a very positive one.

Do you believe that Morningstar hasn’t commented on my original post or even reached out to me. I’ve never seen a company that is supposed to be so consumer conscious act like they have. It’s amazing to me.

10

With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely…

I have been using two ML10X for about a year and a half. It has been a long process of trial and error, however, at every step I was of the understanding that what I was doing was a very novel application of a completely new product. With that frame of mind, it made the process enjoyable. Had I been expecting fully-baked support and a plethora of community knowledge for my use-case, I think I would have sold them after a couple weeks.

Morningstar has some of the best support I’ve ever seen in the MT business. I’m talking about custom firmwares delivered to my inbox an hour after submitting a question on this forum. But of course, they are after all a small company that makes do with very little — hence the reason they are able to sell us the highest quality matrix routers at such a ridiculously low price.

I understand your frustration. If you are willing to put in the time asking questions on this forum (the clearer the better), I not only guarantee that you will achieve the setup you’re looking for but you will also likely have a significant effect on the direction of future product development.

I have seen this in my own situation and it’s a great feeling to see tangible changes come to these products borne out of my own experiences.

On the other hand, if you are looking for immediate answers I would recommend selling now. Unfortunately I can’t recommend a simpler solution because the point people need to understand about the ML10X, in general, is that:

Matrix Routing Is Complicated

I hate to tell you this but making the hardware connections are comparatively easy when compared with making the software connections, accounting for gain staging and mix volume across various sum and merge points, and accounting for phase variance across various nodes.

But if you put time into it and learn to love it, you’ll wind up with a rig that does exactly what you want it to.

Happy to answer any questions.

11

Hello and thank you for your response and do worry about hurting my feelings. I am very aware of the problems associated with a new release of technology and the applications necessary to make them function. I retired as a Senior Vice President, my job was to keep the fires from burning down the house. Some of the biggest problem’s were directly related to the language differences between the Countries and the interpretation of the nuances in the language from one region to another.

We had our fair share of problems. I have very vivid memories of the sleepless nights one has when waiting for the release of these applications. With the advent of new technology and the lightening fast delivery methods made it incredibly difficult once the problem started. There was one time our release caused people’s cars not to start. The point here is this: if you are going to build it, than you better build it correctly, when you don’t, and there will always be that time when you don’t, be prepared to stand up and take the hit and fix the problem.

That is my problem with Morningstar, I haven’t had the same experience you have with customer support. This memo has been posted for several days. I haven’t received any response from Morningstar. The product has been on the market for 18 months. There is no excuse for not knowing their product and not being able to support it. I get that somewhere I may have missed the fact that the ML10X’s need to be connected with a TRS cable. But the rest of it, there is no place where those answers are. It is their absolute duty to post and publish these fixes.

I’ve been trying to figure out how to turn off the experimental mode on the editor, where does it tell you how. More importantly, why can’t you just Google for the answer. By the way, if you know, please share.

The last thing that absolutely burns me is that those little chrome rings that line the input holes fall out. There is no way they don’t know this, isn’t it their obligation to fix a known product malfunction. Back in my years, if we would have released something and learned of a problem, the problem would not have been the fix, the problem would be how quickly and how efficiently could we get the fix implemented. We didn’t make excuses for failures, there were many, we wore and owned our mistakes. That is called “putting on your big boy shoes and fixing it.”

That is my morning rant and thank you for getting it out of me so early. Now I have truly important things to do. I have to walk my dogs.

12

I didn’t me “do” worry, I meant “don’t worry” about the statement.

13

I think you’ll get more traction if you just post one issue at a time. Try a very short post with the issue very clearly stated. Longer posts tend to fall off.

14

I don’t doubt that at all. Fortunately, I believe I have the ML10X problem sorted out. Someone else has schooled me in getting that figured out. I’m getting new cables tomorrow so I’ll have to start soldering. After that, between Chase Bliss support on MIDI and what I can gather from other forums, I should be okay.

I appreciate what you said about my rant, what else can you do when you’re left in the ditch by the manufacturer. Based on some of the view points I’ve heard, I’m not the only one with this problem.

Thank you for your help.

15

I am about to buy a second ML10X for a complex rack effects setup. I have done the research to understand what the ML10X delivers, and I accept the risk of experimental use of the device which is not necessarily assured by the manufacturer.

Very keen to hear feedback on how this goes! Hopefully we can all collaborate to identify some great options and solutions.

16

It has been an adventure for me. There are many things that seem simple but will make you crazy. The Facebook Forum tends to be pretty active and resourceful.

17

If only someone could have saved you some trouble :smiley:

Screenshot 2024-06-05 at 16.24.34
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That was over a week before this post here. And I also told you that you need to treat these as completely separate and independent devices, that they do not talk to each other. I’m glad you were able to figure it out, but we were trying to help. I hope everything goes smoothly from here.

18

I got it dude! It freaking works!

19

hey lightyrs, what kind of custom firmware was helpful to you with multiple mlx10s?