Error with Source Audio NeuroHub and Morningstar

MIDI Control Others
1

Hello, I am hoping someone out there can help me figure this out.

For months now I have been having an issue with using the Morningstar with the Neurohub from Source Audio, in that by having Expression CC Messages to Pedals outside the Neurohub, for example: Expression CC Number 100, min 0 max 127, Channel 9 (for an H9 Pedal) - this simply seems to overload the Neurohub to a degree that it locks up when I keep rocking the Expression pedal, AND also creates the Neurohub Expression input to not respond correctly anymore (freezes randomly).

I am wondering if I am programing expression control inefficiently or wrongly? Source audio asked me if the Morning Star is sending extra messages, which I think not. CC number 100 controls pedal expression on the H9, which can be any set of parameters there depending on what I assign expression to on the H9 Control App - but the same principle applies to the Mobius from Strymon or the Meris pedal, in that by setting it on the Pedal itself if a preset has Expression ON or OFF, one can control a series of parameters or none by ā€œprogramming it on the pedal itselfā€. Is this too much midi information? Note this happens even if I assign Expression to a single parameter on either Meris, Strymon or H9. It makes me wonder why is the Neurohub the only midi receiving apparatus that locks up while all other pedals continue to work without any hiccups.

As a reference, my presets are usually all like this:
I have ā€œPCā€, ā€œCCā€ and ā€œExpression CCā€ Messages in all presets:
PC Midi Messages (and midi chain order): Hub (Channel 2) > Disaster Area Midi Box (for 3 Pedals: Chase Bliss x2 and Meris x1) > Mobius > H9
Expression CC: CC Expression to 3 Pedals: Meris from 0 to 127 (on at all times, controlled on the pedal with hell down and toe down by changing the knobs on these positions), H9 from 0 to 127 on at all times (controlled from the preset on the pedal itself via the Control app) and Mobius from 0 1o 127 (on at all times - control per preset on the pedal itself by havin ā€œEPā€ set to ON or OFF)
CC Messages: one or two depending on the Preset, to specific Pedals (including ones on the Hub)

*every single Pedal has a separate Midi Channel , that is not Channel 2 which is the Channel for the Neurohub
*I use a Mission Engineering Double Expression Pedal EP25k: one to Hub Expression Input and one to Morningstar Expression Input1 - I tried using separate expression pedals for the Neurohub and the Morningstar and the same thing happens - it all seems to come from the fact that there are Expression CC messages being sent from the Morningstar via Midi that ā€œoverwhelmā€ the Neurohub, even though it is in its own separate midi channel!

This problem is really bugging me for so long, killed many days i should probably have spent more playing/practicing. I absolutely like the Morningstar: it has so many good features and on paper it is everything I could ask for in a midi controller, but this problem renders using it with expression with pedals completely problematic: it is like I either use expression with the Neurohub or with the Morningstar, but there is in theory no reason why this should be so.
(PS: I am also trying to troubleshoot this with Source Audio, but I figure maybe someone here got this same problem with a similar set up or do not, which could imply something is wrong with my Morningstar unit - if that was the case at least I would know more than I do now about how to solve it!)

many thanks to anyone pitching in - especially if you have the same type set up: Morningstar MC6 mkII with H9/Mobius and Neurohub, using expression on Source Audio Pedals through the Hub and for the H9/Mobius via the Morningstar.

2

Iā€™m using a DOD mini exp pedal to control a Neuro Hub / C4 , HX Stomp and 2 H9s. Iā€™m controlling all of them via midi with the expression pedal connected to my MC 6. I havenā€™t experienced any of the issues you bring up.
Iā€™m not sending any CC TO the Neuro but sending CC and Exp CC to the C4 THRU the Neuro.

3

i got your post though it is not there now.
im also not sending Expression CC to the Hub. Could you be so kind to send me a bank backup from the MC6 and a Hub backup, so I can test here if it works on my system? my email: jffmind[at]gmail.com

ps: does the ā€œRecall Lastā€ light on the Hub always light on when you rock your expression pedal - and does the Hub never lock up if you keep rocking the expression pedal while having it also control expression on both H9s?

thanks - i would really appreciate the backupfiles to see if i can figure out whats wrong with my systemā€¦

4

What Source Audio pedal are you trying to control the Neuro hub with? What firmware version are you using on the Neuro hub?
I donā€™t have a bank back up for the Neuro hub. It is used to create scenes with multiple Source Audio pedals. I only have 1 SA pedal so Iā€™m just using the hub as a pass thru from the MC6 to the C4.
When I use my expression pedal the recall / last led lights up but when the pedal stops moving the light goes out, regardless of the position of the pedal. Actually it blinks with every midi command I send from my MC6. Doesnā€™t matter what or where Iā€™m sending, it blinks.
Iā€™m not exactly sure of your configuration. Are you trying to connect 1 expression pedal into 2 devices at one time?
I have never plugged my expression pedal into the neuro hub so Iā€™m donā€™t know what that would do.
Have you watched the video in #morningstar-gear:expression-pedals . Setting up expression pedals with your Morningstar.
Is your neuro hub set to midithru or midiout?

5

I am using MC6Mk2 to control many things, amongst them are 2 neuro hubs (it was 3, 2 months ago ,but I simplifiedā€¦) and have no problems.
I am using differnt channels for different things, for example I dedicate channel 2 for neuros hubs, channel 3 for my H&K amps, 8 for some elektron things, 12 for Waldorf, etc.
But to be honest, I am using an MIOXM from Iconnectivity and connect 90% of all this using USB. Before this it was a spaghetti incident of midi cablesā€¦

6

Neurohub 1.18 (latest). Midi through.
I realise that one can control the C4 with Expression CCs from the Morningstar and I did this but the Hub has its own expression input that works too, well except I got the issue I have been trying to describe and see if anyone can replicate.

My expression setup is en par with what Morningstart videos show. The issue is how the Hub gets messed with it, when trying to use expression with the pedals attached to it. If not using expression on the Hub all is ok (meaning I can control expression via Expression CC from the Morningstart woth midi through on the Hub) EXCEPT that the Hub will also eventually lock up as if it is overwhelmed by the Express CC messages sent to the other nons-SA pedals down the chainā€¦

It is goo to know abut the light on the Neurohub - the same is true for me. It just that using expression on the Morningstart for the H9 or Strymon ends up messing up the Neurohub somehow, locking it up so Midi stops working AND interfering with how an expression Pedal attached to the Hub responds (regardless if the same or another one).

7

Concerning connection between Neuro Hub and SA pedals, I only connect neuro hub by USB, but keep SA pedals connected to the Hub with the special midi cable.
I donā€™t think that neuro hub obeys to any CC, especially if not on its channel, but it sends all received signals to pedals, even if the SA pedals are not on same channel as it.
My first reco would be to take a dedicated channel number for Neuro Hub AND ā€˜all its connected pedals but the C4ā€™, then assign to C4 a different channel.
Also remind that each SA pedal has its own midi table to trigger actions and may be you are ā€˜collidingā€™ (in SA fashion :wink: ) some pedals with the CC you send for C4 if they are on same channel as the C4, so keep C4 on another channel then the hub and other SA pedals.
C4 being connected to Hub, it will continue to change its presets when you address a PC (scene change) to the Hub. Hub always sends scene changes to connected SA pedals whatever their midi channel.
If you donā€™t use scenes stored in the Hub to change presets on C4 and prefer to use its internally saved presets, you have no reason to connect C4 to Hub, but in this case you need a USB host as the Miditech or Kenton to connect your Morningstar controller directly to C4ā€¦ the Hub and its scenes are usually a better choice. You could duplicate the C4 presets stored in Hub scenes to C4 local storage (and in the opposite direction also) if you want.
The only time my Neuro Hubs were freezing was when I was when doing a midi loop, The reason why I use IConnectivity : avoid midi loops created with traditionnal cabling.
Hope this could help you, may be I donā€™t understand your problem.

1 Like
8

thanks. All my Pedals have their own Midi Channel. There is no overlap. The issue is as I described above: the Hub function deteriorates and it locks up when it receiving Expression CC for other Pedals down the chain, which the Morningstart is controlling using an expression pedal attached to it ā€¦

9

PS: i have 4 pedals attached to the Hub: ventris, nemesis, c4 and kingmaker! all of them on their own channel, wich is also a different channel as from the hub itself. I use scenes and the input cintrol on the SA pedals to assign expression, controlling it via the expression input on the hub itself. the problem is this does not work the moment my Morningstar sends Express CC to my H9 or Strymon while having and expression pedal attached to itā€¦

10

Unfortunately my expression pedal just took a dump. I have ordered a new one. I have tried to replicate what you have going on and I can not get the hub to lock up. It does sound like a midi loop situation. Do you have anything going to the midi in on the Morningstar. What is your midi chain

11

I have 2 expression pedals on my MC6 and one on a SA Soleman (driven by the MC6 which selects Lists of scenes on Soleman), and I send CCs to my hubs from MC6 and Soleman without locks on the hubs. Your pb appears to me more as a midi loop pb ???
Try to use MidiOx to dump the midi traffc.
Good luck.

12

here is the break down of my Midi chain:
Morning star Midi Out > Hub In, midi through > Disaster Area Midi Box (Chase Blissx 2 Pedals and Meris x1) midi in, midi through > Strymon midi in, midi through> Eventide midi in.

I have used Midi Monitor (on Mac) to monitor the Morningstar, everything looked ok. I also had the Hub as the last pedal, but it all made no difference.

Any advice where else I need to check fir a Midi loop and how I know ai got one? PS, i run the Ventris and the Nemesis in Parallell to one another - would that mess with a Midiloop? I got no idea if it would - BUT i maintain that even testing Morningstar Midi out to Hub midi in, when having Express CC messages being activated by an expression Pedal on the MC6, the hub eventually stopped responding tooā€¦

My question to you is do you use the Hubs Expression Input at all?

13

How do I ā€œdumpā€ midi traffic?

14

I have never used the hub for expression myself.

15

Have you mapped your expression pedal to your SA pedals in the neuro desktop app. I watched you other video and while I can see the hub receiving midi I didnā€™t see the king maker receiving midi. When I use my expression pedal the light on the hub activates and so does the top light in the middle of the pedal.
In the neuro desktop app I have CC4 assigned to Remote Expression Pedal. I only have the C4 so you may need to do that for every pedal.

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16

For the Kingmaker, the Ventris and the Nemesis, this strategy does not work as well. I am not sure why - this is what i tried the first time aroundā€¦ but it did not workā€¦
But for the Ventris and the Nemesis I could simply not use the Hub and use the Midi In/Out options there - and that leaves the C4 and Kingmakerā€¦

The compromise not using the Hub is that I then need to have more PC and Expression CC Messages on a chain of what was 4 things to now 6 - I wonder if this will case problems with passing on the Midi Messages - some people argue a Midi Chain should have no more than 4 things linked to it - have you guys experience problems with a longer chain of effects (keeping in mind at all times I would have the Expression CC to 7 Pedals, if I do not use the Hubs Expression Input)

17

Iā€™m running 5 devices in a chain with no issues. If you are connecting an expression pedal to the hub and the Morningstar at the same time, whether it 1 pedal split to 2 devices or 1 pedal to each device , that may be the cause of your problem.

18

Thanks Alamondm - unfortunately, even if I do not have an Expression Pedal attached to the Hub, there are still issues with the Hub sort of freezing after using the Expression like a Wah Pedal for the H9 or the Strymon (Mobius).

I realise not using the Hub for expression would increase my number of PC Messages to 7 and Expression CC to 7 Pedals on pretty much every presetā€¦ I need to try it out (againā€¦) but first I am trying to confirm with SA also if something is wrong with the Hub and how it is set upā€¦

19

Worth looking into.

20

i have seen this page. connecting an expression pedal to a One series Pedal will use the input control otherwise needed for the Hub to record scenes - i use presets nearly 90% of the time, so it has to be remote control or Hub Expression Input. Since Hub expression doesnt work with MC6 expression happening at the same time, its gotta be remote expression from MC6 only and thats hoping the Hub wont freeze. But it is so frustrating bc all these solutions will leave something to be desiredā€¦its a compromise I thought I would not need to make
If only the Hub didnt get confused with MC6 Expression CCsā€¦