Difference btw Merging and Summing

Hey everyone, sry if don’t get it, but what is the difference between merging to signals at one connector of a Node and summing of two signals connected to the two connectors of the Output Node?

Is it like that?


Signal 1 → Output = Signal Level
Signal 1 + Signal 2 → Output = (Signal 1 + Signal 2)/2 = Signal Level


Signal 1 → Output = Signal Level
Signal 1 + Signal 2 → Output = 2x Signal Level

What confuses me is, that in the ML10X Manual it is written, that the output node has a summing circuit, that the other nodes don’t have?

I don’t pocess a ML10X yet, because I am currently relying on the flexibility of a soundscultpure switchblade, controlled by a MC8. I wish I find a solution to use a ML10X so I can have a all morningstar workflow.

Yes, this is correct.

The output node has a summing circuit so you can route your delay trails etc to the output when you bypass those loops.

The Switchblade definitely has more features like individual gain control for each loop etc, but it is larger and more expensive. For the target size and price we want to sell the ML10X at, these were all the features that we decided to add.

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Could you talk this through in layman’s terms please? Can the ML10X do either sum or merge? Is this done by adding signal to one or more nodes? I wonder if I’ve attached my signal path correctly? and which does what?

The above is averaging the circuit together.

This is summing the circuit.

Only the Output nodes have summing circuits built in, because this is used for delay or reverb trails.

Send/Return ports can only average signals.

Hope that is clear! Please feel free to let me know if you have any further questions.

Thanks James for your answers!

So when I merge two signals to a send node, they both loose 6dB? Is this because of full scale limits of a digital environment or why is this happening?

I guess I don’t get the point how merging works. I mean it is still summing plus a divider right? But without a summing circuit?

The signal isn’t converted digital signals in the ML10X. It stays analog.

It’s just the way we designed the hardware, because without individual loop gain control, a summing circuit at each node will boost your volume 2x when you merge 2 signals, 3x if 3 (simplistically speaking)…

Example 1

Assuming that we used summing circuits instead of averaging.
In Preset 1 you have this:
and then you switch to Preset 2 which looks like this:

You’re going to get a (probably unwanted) volume boost each time you have a preset that sums multiple signals. With merging, your signal is averaged out and your volume level remains more of less the same.

Example 2

Unrelated to the above example. Now let’s say you have a Preset 1 like this:

and then you want to switch off the delay while leaving trails in Preset 2:
You’d want the delay trails summed at the output so you get the full delay signal.

I’ll just take this chance to give some clarity on the design process of the ML10X. The goal was just to introduce reordering capabilities to our loop switcher (ML5) while keeping the price point low and size similar to the ML5. We weren’t interested in adding phase inverters, gain control, vu meters etc in each loop. That will easily blow up the price and size. So our early MVP was the SIMPLE mode that you see now. There was no merging/splitting capabilities and ADVANCED mode didn’t exist. There was some crude splitting and merging circuit where you could only split one signal into two, and merge two signals into 1. Somewhere down the road we figured with some hardware tweaks and overnight hardcore dev jams we can allow for a signal to be split and merged multiple times and provide a UI in the editor (advanced mode) to allow that, which is how ADVANCED mode came about.

Just so I have this correct in my head:

Example 1: when the signal is averaged, there’s a 6dB decrease?
Example 2: when the signal is summed, there’s a volume increase?

Where did you get 6dB from?

The simple formula for merging would be output = (signal1 + signal2)/2. If merging 3 signals, (signal1 + signal2 + signal3)/3.

For summing, it’s just signal1 + signal2.

Try doing this and you’ll hear a volume increase:

This is because the input signal is split into 2 (both at 100% signal) and then summed back.

I got the dB from an earlier post in this thread, not from yourself.

Ah, so merging/averaging it’s unity gain but summing it’s literarily signal 1 + signal two volume.

Thanks so much for the explanation.

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